Minister for Disabled People talks to Access All

 

12th October 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 74

Presented by Nikki Fox

 

 

NIKKI-             This weekend I had something happen to me for the very first time. [Sighs] listeners, I experienced what you guys call cramp. I’ve always heard you non-disabled folk talk about this thing and I’m like, do I not get cramp because I’m not athletic and I’m not going for nine-mile runs? Do disabled people not get cramp? What is cramp? I want to know what cramp feels like. Well, I felt it. it felt a bit like pins and needles but so much worse. And you know how I got cramp? From standing in that standing frame. Now, I know I have been boring you all about this standing frame I got; in fact so much so that Frances Ryan, the brilliant journalist from The Guardian, text me the other day and went, ‘Well, you are an athlete now’. I’m like, yes I am. I am loving it.

But I overdid it slightly. The lady that fitted it for me perfectly, she said 20 minutes at a time, that’s it. What did Foxy do? She got so overexcited she stood in it for two and a half hours. My boyfriend kept coming up to me saying, “Do you not want to get out now?” I’m like, “No, I love it!” I watched loads of films. I watched Married At First Sight UK. I stretched out. My shoulders feel great. It was need to eat that got me out of it. So, I pressed my little button, went down, then immediately my leg started feeling this sensation that I’ve never felt before. And I looked at Dave and I went, “Dave, I think I’ve got cramp. And it’s really horrible”. So, yeah, that’s my weekend.

MUSIC-           Theme music.

NIKKI-             Hello everyone. Thank you so much for listening. This is Access All, the BBC’s disability and mental health podcast. I’m Nikki Fox, the BBC’s disability news correspondent, and today I’m flying solo. My partner in crime is on holiday again. Emma Tracey, I miss you, come back. I am very excited though because later on in the podcast we are going to be hearing from Jay. Now, Jay is one of the contestants on the latest series of MAFSUK, that’s Married At First Sight, which is quickly becoming my favourite thing to watch on telly at the moment. I’m losing hours of my life to MAFSUK. It was for the podcast, folks; I was researching before that interview, and now I’m obsessed. And it’s on every single night. If you haven’t seen the programme it’s all about singles looking for love who commit to marrying a stranger – I mean they don’t actually get married, married, but they do some commitment service. Now, Emma Tracey will be here for that because we prerecorded it.

                         But first up we’ve got an interview with someone who is no stranger to the podcast. It’s the disability minister Tom Pursglove. Well, we are joined now by Tom Pursglove, minister for disabled people work and health.

TOM-               Health and work.

NIKKI-             Health and work, I said it the wrong way round.

TOM-               Don’t worry.

NIKKI-             Thank you so much for joining us today, Tom. First question I want to ask you very quickly, are you a MAFSUK fan?

TOM-               A MAFSUK fan? Tell me more.

NIKKI-             Married At First Sight.

TOM-               I’ve never seen Married At First Sight I have to say. Am I missing out?

NIKKI-             If you get involved you’ll lose your life.

TOM-               Ah.

NIKKI-             And you are a minister, you’re very busy, I don’t think there’s enough time in the world.

TOM-               Yeah. And the difficulty for me at the minute is that there’s a cricket world cup going, and as a mega cricket fan…

NIKKI-             Oh, cricket schmicket!

TOM-               …the little bit of time I’ve got spare I try and get the cricket in.

NIKKI-             No, Married At First Sight.

TOM-               Maybe this is the next thing to watch.

NIKKI-             There’s a contestant in there call Jay, and we’ve got her on the show today. And she’s got a limb difference. And she’s fallen in love with Luke and it’s just a dreamy relationship.

TOM-               Ah, very exciting.

NIKKI-             If they split up that’s me done for love. It’s very good though.

TOM-               I’m not sure I could cope with any of that heartbreak, so actually I think I’ll stick to the cricket for now.

NIKKI-             Well, thank you so much for coming in, Tom.

TOM-               Pleasure.

NIKKI-             Because we met last December, wasn’t it. And you were very new to the job at the time, but you were telling us that you had lots of plans and you wanted to get the job done really, get a lot of jobs done. And I just thought perfect chance now for you to tell me what it is that you’re proud of so far, what you’re most proud of so far.

TOM-               I mean, I think it’s been a really good year actually in terms of making progress on this really important agenda. And it’s really terrific to be here talking to you about the work that we’re doing and to sort of check-in on progress. Because it was very early on in the role that I came and saw you and we did a lengthy interview then. But since then obviously we’ve announced our flagship work and health reforms around the disability benefit system; getting rid of that structural barrier to work, which I think is so important. The amount of conversations I’ve had in my time in this role where people say to me, I’m a disabled person, I’d like to try work and would do that with the right support. But that sort of fear factor, that jeopardy in the benefit system of trying a particular role, having identified something that someone would like to do, gets closer to that and then steps back from it because there’s just that fear factor of it not working out, losing their benefit entitlement and then having to reapply and be reassessed in order to reestablish that support. So, we’re going to get rid of that.

NIKKI-             And what is that you’re getting rid of practically?

TOM-               So, it’s the way that the benefit system has been structured as a result of decades and decades of welfare reform: there’s this barrier to work. And the only way we can deal with that properly is to change the law. So, we need to put primary legislation in place, which we’ve committed to doing in the next parliament. But we’re not wasting any time; there’s various initiatives we’re taking forward as well to try and improve people’s journey through the system, trying to reduce that assessment burden on people, particularly where it isn’t appropriate or right, where someone’s disability or health condition is unlikely to improve. So, trying to reduce some of that anxiety and worry. And also just trying to get more decisions right first time.

                         And then we’ve also got things like the National Disability Strategy that we’re now able to get on and do. And we’ve just finished a consultation on our proposed disability action plan, which is all about what we can get on and deliver over the course of the end of this year and into next year, recognising lots of different areas that people have consistently raised with us in the many conversations and engagements and visits that I and officials do. Because we really want to be proactive and get on the front foot and try and tackle some of those issues head on and improve people’s lives for the better.

NIKKI-             Work is a big thing obviously for your role. And for a lot of people the ability to hold down a job does very much depend on the support that they have at home, and in work as well. And for a lot of disabled people that support is being reduced and they are struggling to keep a job or to get a job. Those two things I think, the support at home really will impact work for many people.

TOM-               I agree. And I think it’s about looking at people’s needs really holistically. Of course as the minister for disabled people I chair the ministerial disability champions. So, in each Whitehall department we’ve got a minister who’d designated to take the lead in terms of everything that we do when it comes to new policy, when it comes to new initiatives, when it comes to law changes. And we ought to be looking at that through the prism of disability at the outset. And one of the areas where that cooperation is most important is undoubtedly with health, and so we’ve got the joint work and health unit. And we recognise as a government – I think it’s common sense this – but we strongly recognise that for so many people work is a determinant of better health outcomes. And of course where work isn’t appropriate there must always be that safety net, and any civilised society supports people in those circumstances. But we should focus on wellness wherever we can. And things like our talking therapies offer, we’re getting to the point where 100% of those services will have employment advice built into it. So, there’s that recognition about introducing employment related thinking and considerations into the right journey, within that trying to improve someone’s mental health state and the way that they’re feeling and their wellbeing. That sort of cooperation and that collaboration across government is really important, and that’s reflected on the consultation that we’ve got ongoing at the moment around occupational health. There’s over 90% coverage in large employers. But when you get down to SMEs it’s much smaller, it’s 17%, 18%, and we need to bridge that gap.

NIKKI-             SMEs?

TOM-               Small and medium sized enterprises. So, just trying to make sure that more of them have occupational health coverage available.

NIKKI-             Yeah, because a few weeks ago the government announced changes to the work capability assessment. So, just to get it right, you are thinking of scrapping that, that’s going to be scrapped isn’t it long term?

TOM-               Yes. It remains the absolute intention to get on and scrap the work capability assessment, again reducing that assessment burden on people and having the PIP assessment as being the gateway into the health and disability benefit systems.

NIKKI-             But that’s not merging the work capability, it’s not merging anything that’s an out of work benefit with an extra costs benefit, which is what PIP, personal independent payments is?

TOM-               So, it’s not about bringing those two assessments together in the sense of moving the criteria of the WCA into the PIP assessment. Obviously we’ve got to move forward really carefully to make sure that the PIP assessment is right in the circumstances of that reform, and making sure that it is thorough going and that it does what it needs to do. But I don’t envisage there being significant reform to the PIP assessment as part of that change.

NIKKI-             So, no means testing PIP?

TOM-               No.

NIKKI-             Because I know that’s what a lot of people were worried about.

TOM-               So, there was a bit of speculation about that, wasn’t there, a while back?

NIKKI-             Yeah.

TOM-               But I can categorically say that the government has got no plans to means test PIP.

NIKKI-             Perfect.

TOM-               Which I hope provides some reassurance on that.

NIKKI-             Some reassurance, yeah, because people were kind of feeling that way and were very concerned about that.

TOM-               And it’s a really important benefit that supports people with a whole host of different costs that they incur as a result of their disability.

NIKKI-             Going back to the WCA, work capability assessment, some of it was based on the idea of this kind of acceptance that working from home is a good thing. Starting with mental health, Mind, the charity, came out saying people must take time off if they’re unwell, regardless of where they work. So, there is some concern around working from home is good for everyone. What would you say to that?

TOM-               I think it’s fair to say that all of us would recognise that the world of work has changed enormously since the start of 2020 with COVID and everything that went with COVID. That undoubtedly changed people’s working patterns and the way in which so many people carry out work from a day-to-day basis and a day-to-day perspective. So, what we think is that it’s right to have a look at whether the WCA criteria – which haven’t actually been reevaluated since 2011, there’s been no change to the criteria since then – ought to have a fresh look at whether flexible working and home working opportunities might open up work opportunities for people who wouldn’t otherwise be able to access them. This debate sometimes gets dragged off in the direction of getting away from the key principle that we’re looking at really carefully here, which is the difference between could home working or flexible working facilitate work opportunities for someone who, without that, wouldn’t be able to access any work opportunities at all.

                         But of course, to sort of go back to Mind’s point, if people are unwell it’s really important that they take the time and the space that they need to get well and to engage with the treatment that’s available through the health service and through occupational health, for example, within workplaces where that’s available, and other forms of support, to make sure that they get well and are able to be as productive as they would like to be, but also feel better in themselves.

NIKKI-             Of course for some physically disabled people flexibility in the workplace might be right for them; not for everyone but might be perfect for some. But I have heard from disabled people going for jobs at actually quite big companies, some who are disability confident as well, who are not as flexible as they first advertise. They mention flexibility in the workplace, and then, you know, but you’ve got to be in four days a week and there might be some travel. It doesn’t seem to be working for everyone.

TOM-               So, I think this is actually a really interesting area that as part of the sort of occupational health consultation we’re keen to hear people’s experiences and their views, and obviously through the work capability assessment consultation as well. I also think there’s a bit of an opportunity as we review disability confident. It's been a massive vehicle for change and done so much good in terms of over 18,000 employers are now disability confident, and they amount to over 11 million jobs on payrolls. But there’s a question about where we go from here with disability confidence, because we can now get on and do that review because of the change in position around the national disability strategy and the court’s ruling that we can make progress on that now. So, we will have that disability confident review.

                         And meeting the employment goal, getting a million more disable people into work, we met that five years earlier. But that’s just a start. We’ve got to carry on that progress.

NIKKI-             But the thing is though, Tom, when we talk about work it is frustrating because the disability employment gap really hasn’t changed to anything that you could sort of sing about really. It’s at 29% now, it’s hovered around 30% for many years. People with learning disabilities they’re under 6% employment rate, that hasn’t changed. And then when you’re in my position hearing from disabled people who are trying to get jobs at big companies who are disability confident but aren’t being flexible and actually putting that barrier up. What would you say to companies like that?

TOM-               So, we really want to concentrate on the gap, and we’re thinking about where we go from here in terms of a future employment target. And what I’d say to employees is look, this isn’t just morally the right thing to do to be employing disabled people, it makes absolute sense to do it. There are so many people who can offer so much to your workplaces, to think about problems in a different way, the dedication, the commitment, the desire to succeed; it’s mad not to be utilising on those many strengths and talents that are available. And that’s why we as a government think that we need to be doing even more to try and help enable those opportunities. And things like Access to Work Plus that we’re moving forward with are all about working with employers, working with disabled people to craft roles so that from the very outset they’re right for that person. And I want us to learn from the best employers, the people who are doing this brilliantly.

NIKKI-             Access to Work is what you’ve mentioned there and there are still delays and there is still bureaucracy with it. I know you were very keen to streamline that when we last spoke, weren’t you? You were keen to get stuck in.

TOM-               Yeah. We are making some real progress. Back in June we went live with the online claims portal and what I’m hearing is is that’s really helping to smooth some of those claim journeys and getting those paid.

NIKKI-             Just explain that to us, this online…?

TOM-               Rather than having to send envelopes and paper through the post in order to be able to unlock your claim, you can now do that through the online claims portal. So, that’s been quite welcome, and it’s helping to speed up some of those wait times.

NIKKI-             I think I can probably say this and get away with it and not get sacked: I use Access to Work obviously because I need support in work, and nobody has told me about this online portal.

TOM-               Well, I will get some details to you.

NIKKI-             This is the first I’ve heard about it, Tom.

TOM-               Well, we will have a look at what more we can do to try and get the message out there about that.

NIKKI-             Yeah.

TOM-               And we’ve also put considerable more manpower and womanpower onto the claims process to make sure that we’re trying to work through these wait times, getting the help and support to people. But also some common sense streamlinings that we’ve introduced, so things like travel claims which is a really important part of the support that we provide and actually is a lifeline for a lot of people in terms of facilitating them being able to work, what we’ve done with that is rather than people having to go round and getting three quotes, we’re now doing benchmarking against local authority taxi and private hire vehicle rates and getting those agreed with people so we can get them paid much more quickly. So, we’re trying to be quite innovative. And we’ve got a working group as well at the moment. But we want to hear people’s experiences and their ideas, because it is a flagship scheme, it’s done a lot in terms of unlocking employment opportunities for people, and we want that to be sustainable for the future.

NIKKI-             It’s fundamentally important for so many people. When you think about aspirations in general, when you think about the difference between disabled people getting on and non-disabled people getting on, there will never be equality between the two. And I’m talking about disabled people who need support, so someone who needs a PA and might get their funding through the local authority or the NHS or whatever. If a disabled person has £22,500 in savings they have to pay for their own care. Now, in part it depends how much you’ve got. Is that fair because that then stops that person reaching massive, massive heights? I’m not being particularly eloquent. But they want to be the next big things, they want to have a lot of money in their account, they want to set themselves up for the future, they might not be able to work for as long as everyone else for whatever reason, so they want to earn their money. And actually it’s impossible to do that when every year you have to send three bank statements off to your local authority for them to scrutinise what’s in your pension, how much savings you’ve got, have you got a house, what do you spend on gas and electric. You’re always going to be draining your account to pay for the care that you need to work.

TOM-               I don’t want anybody to be written off from opportunities. And actually everything we’re doing has that at its heart, that we don’t want there to be barriers, unnecessary barriers to people getting on and succeeding and achieving the things that they want to achieve. And that’s why things like the employment support that we’re putting in place, universal support, as I’ve touched on, things like the work well partnerships that we’re introducing to try and drive greater wellness and to support people with health conditions to be able to retain their employment, that has got that sort of aspiration at its heart. And there are these cross-government conversations going on about what more we can do to try and overcome those barriers. And I think there are the sorts of issues that we can talk about, particularly as they think about where we go next with social care reform and making sure that those arrangements are fit for purpose, and that people are properly supported to meet some of those really challenging costs.

NIKKI-             Obviously the disabled person is paying tax and insurance, the PAs are paying tax and insurance, so it’s all good. But then you get to that threshold, and often when you’re in that position you’re exempt from any grants and this, so you’re also spending more, you’re going through more equipment and whatever and you’re not getting grants for it. Do you think that’s fundamentally fair?

TOM-               So, I would want to pick up on that specific point with colleagues in DHSC, because they have the lead on that. And one of the big advantages of my role is that having that cross-government focus does mean that you can go and have those conversations with colleagues elsewhere and then ask them to have a look in quite some detail about those policies and about whether they’re fitting neatly with the sort of overarching direction of travel that we are trying to go in. And there’s a lot of effort, a lot of energy going in behind this agenda. But I’d be really happy to pick that one up with colleagues elsewhere in government and ask what their take is on that and whether they think there’s anything more that we can do to make that a bit easier.

NIKKI-             And it’s also important for me to mention as well actually, it’s not just people in work but actually people who can’t work for whatever reason who are on certain benefits, some people also have to pay for part of their care as well.

                         Thank you Tom Pursglove. I’ve been told we’re chatting for too long. It’s been a chunky one this. Thank you so much.

TOM-               It’s been good. We’ve covered a lot of ground.

NIKKI-             We have. Thank you Tom.

                         We recorded the following interview last week when Emma was around. Enjoy.

EMMA-           The other week, Nikki, I had a blether, as we would say in Scotland, on the show about Married At First Sight.

NIKKI-             But you’re Irish, but never mind, carry on.

EMMA-           Yeah, it all gets very confusing [laughter]. But anyway we were chatting about the show because it’s back, bigger than ever, as they say. Load of episodes, 36. And it’s got a disabled contestant which, as you know brings me straight in there. I love a disabled contestant.

NIKKI-             We can hear in the background, and yes, that contestant is Jay, and she’s on the line with us now. And I’m beyond excited. I can’t contain myself. Welcome to the podcast, Jay. It’s so lovely to meet you.

JAY-                Thank you so much for having me.

NIKKI-             It’s going to be one of these moments when I get really excited, and I just come across as a bit strange, to be honest.

JAY-                [Laughs]

NIKKI-             I’m so deep into the series now. And you and Luke, I just fell in love with you straightaway. Absolute favourites. And I’ve said that if anything happens to you guys that’s it, I’m finished with love, I’m finished.

EMMA-           With love? Not just with the show but with actual love all together?

NIKKI-             No, with love.

JAY-                All together with love.

NIKKI-             Love is over. Love is done.

EMMA-           Oh my gosh.

NIKKI-             I did say the same thing about Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, but.

EMMA-           And look what happened there, oh my gosh.

JAY-                Yeah, look what happened.

NIKKI-             For listeners that haven’t seen Married At First Sight UK, this new series, tell them how it works.

JAY-                Basically you go through to the experts. There are a lot of in-depth conversations that are involved and a lot of surveys that you have to take, loads of personality tests. And then basically what happens is you don’t meet each other, you don’t know anything about the other person at all, up until first sight. So, when I was walking down the aisle for instance I didn’t have a clue what I was going to, and he didn’t have a clue what he was going to turn round and see. So, it is very, very daunting.

NIKKI-             Jay you in episode one were one of the first to get married. And we learnt a little bit about you straightaway:

[Clip]

JAY-                I was born without my left arm. I used to wear a prosthetic arm, and I used to take it off at school and put it in my backpack, and the hand used to just be sticking out because it was too big. It looked like a thing out of the Addams Family just sticking out the back of my bag.

[End of clip]

NIKKI-             And you were really fabulously open, weren’t you, from the start about your limb difference?

JAY-                Yeah. I always have been to be honest; it’s not something that has ever bothered me talking about that openly.

NIKKI-             I can tell. And the way you and your sis talk about it as well, and then the way you are with your mates and all of that, you’re totally chilled about it.

JAY-                Yeah.

NIKKI-             But what struck me was when I saw you I just saw this absolute stunner with red hair, banging figure, great tats – I know I sound a little bit like a pervy teenager.

EMMA-           Great tats. Do you mean tattoos?

NIKKI-             Tattoos, yeah. And obviously your arm you notice it, but then when you were talking, when it was in the context of finding a man or meeting Luke for the first time, you were really worried about it. And I was like Jay, you’re a stunner. What has happened in your life to make you like that concerned about how someone is going to react to you?

JAY-                It is purely just like people’s reactions. Obviously when somebody gets to know me it’s different. And the amount of like, even Luke has said after the first couple of days, he was like, “I don’t even notice it anymore, it’s just the norm”. But it’s just initial reactions. I’ve been in situations where I’ve been talking to somebody, like dating scene kind of thing, and then as soon as they’ve noticed it you can just see their face drop. Not all the time, but just like the odd occasion. So, yeah like I said, I stated that in my VT for my backstory, it’s not something for everyone:

[Clip]

JAY-                My arm has had an impact sometimes with dating. Some people get a bit cringed out by it. Obviously it’s not for everyone, is it? It’s something that you don’t see every day. But it’s hard because you think, why do you not want to know who I am?

[End of clip]

EMMA-           What do you mean, it’s not something for everyone?

NIKKI-             No, but I know what you're saying there because I said to you, Em, I had this before. And I had a similar thing Jay, when I was growing up, I used to walk most of the time but really badly. So, I’d be like out with my mates, leaning on the bar having a drink, some dude would come and chat me up and I’d be like I’m going to have to walk back to the table now and they’re going to see me, and they had no idea that I was disabled. And you do notice that there are some fellas, like Luke, really couldn’t care less. Like in the VO or not to you straightaway but he said you were everything he asked for, like everything.

JAY-                Yeah. Do you know watching that back it really did make me smile, because half of the stuff you don’t know what the other person has said in your little VTs. And it is really nice to watch it back. He was happy, and it just put my mind at ease.

NIKKI-             I loved how your sister was giving him the third degree as well, it was brilliant, on the wedding day, wasn’t she?

JAY-                Yeah.

NIKKI-             Do you fancy her though, yeah.

JAY-                A lot of people think that she was being really harsh with him, but it’s not that. My sister is very protective and that’s all it is, and she just wanted to know. Because obviously of my situations that I’ve had in the past and different circumstances that I’ve been in, she just wanted to make sure that he wasn’t just being polite just for the sake of being polite, and he actually did fancy me.

EMMA-           So, what sorts of situations did you find yourself in in the past?

JAY-                It’s not all the time, it’s just like the odd time. Mainly when I was younger, when I was a teenager there wasn’t much awareness about it.

NIKKI-             The world was slightly different, wasn’t it, when you were growing up in the ‘90s?

JAY-                Yeah, the world was slightly different, it was very narrow-minded, and basically I didn’t go on any dates or anything because nobody was interested.

EMMA-           I hear you, sister.

NIKKI-             But do you think it might have been – because I often thought that when I started using a mobility scooter to get around I stopped dating, I was dating like a ninja before that but then I stopped dating when I started using the scooter – and I kind of thought oh, it’s the scooter and fellas can’t get their head around that. I was working quite a lot as well so it wasn’t just that. But I actually think in hindsight it was probably me, I probably just put a bit of a barrier up because it’s a way of protecting myself. Do you reckon it could have been partly that with you back in the day?

JAY-                Yeah, definitely. I wouldn’t necessarily go and approach somebody because I don’t want to be rejected. It’s taken me a long time to build my confidence up. But what I can say with this experience I’ve had a major confidence boost. Even though I thought I was confident before I’m so much more happy within myself and I love myself now fully. I’ve learnt to look at it differently.

NIKKI-             I love that. One thing I was thinking as well, Jay, because obviously you’ve got limb difference, and we’re a disability pod, and we said disabled contestant. That was probably a bit presumptuous on our part, because is that a word that you associate with yourself?

JAY-                I mean, I don’t look at myself, I am disabled, but I don’t look at myself as a disabled person, if that makes sense.

NIKKI-             Yeah.

JAY-                Because I am very independent. The way that my mum’s brought me up, my mum’s been my rock and she’s literally said, listen you can do everything as much as…obviously you won’t be able to do certain things, which is inevitable, it’s going not happen, but as long as you try, give it a go. She’s always pushed me to get the best out of myself rather than just sitting there and wallowing about it.

EMMA-           Amazing. Obviously you filmed it all ages ago so you’re watching it as it’s going out and other people are watching it as it’s going out. Have you had feedback? Have the viewers got in touch with you?

JAY-                Yeah. Do you know what, I’ve had so much love and support, it’s unreal. It’s very overwhelming because I wasn’t expecting that at all, I wasn’t expecting that response.

EMMA-           What kind of support have you had, what kinds of messages?

JAY-                Just saying how inspirational I am and how confident I am, how it’s a massive thing. I’ve had people sending me pictures of their children that are like me.

NIKKI-             Aw.

JAY-                And just so happy to see somebody on a big dating show, they’re all saying that I’m smashing it. And I was like oh so nice.

NIKKI-             Oh, I love it.

EMMA-           You’re quite emotional about all of it, aren’t you? It has actually had a massive impact on you.

JAY-                Yeah, I am a little bit because I wasn’t… I am getting emotional. Oh good, ooh.

EMMA-           No, it’s lovely though.

JAY-                It’s because I just wasn’t expecting it, do you know what I mean [voice breaks].

NIKKI-             Oh.

EMMA-           I’ve kicked you off now.

NIKKI-             Emma Tracey!

JAY-                It’s all right, don’t worry.

NIKKI-             Do you know what, I love, when you see these kinds of programmes, I’ve worked in TV on those kinds of shows – well not those kinds of shows, but that kind of TV before – and you do worry actually does it do the contestant any good. But to hear you having such a positive experience from that, because you were brave to go on it in the first place, even though if I were you Jay I’d just be like whatever, I’m a stunner. But I understand how you felt about yourself and I get it. So, to hear you’ve had such a positive experience.

JAY-                Yeah.

NIKKI-             One thing I was admiring, for someone who’s never been brave to do it, your tats on your arm. Was that a conscious decision to put them on the arm that is shorter than the other?

JAY-                Do you know it was, yeah. I was obsessed with tattoos for a time. This sleeve I’ve had for years now. I’ve not had any recent tattoos to be honest for quite a while now. But the idea of it was in my head if I put a sleeve on my stump, as I call it, people will be more intrigued rather than looking at it and thinking urgh. So, they’d say wow, look at all these tattoos, rather than looking at if to say oh, she’s got one arm. Do you know what I mean?

EMMA-           Yeah.

JAY-                That was the initial thinking behind it. But I always wanted a sleeve anyway. And I’m obsessed with Disney so it is literally just covered in Disney stuff.

NIKKI-             Oh, I didn’t know that.

EMMA-           What do they look like? What do they look like?

JAY-                I have Sally from Nightmare Before Christmas there.

NIKKI-             I love it!

JAY-                I’ve got the flower from Alice in Wonderland and the rocking horse. I’ve got Beauty and the Beast.

NIKKI-             Oh, I love it.

JAY-                Nightmare Before Christmas again, Alice in Wonderland the rabbit. I’ve got Pocohontas at the back here.

NIKKI-             They are amazing tats, Em.

EMMA-           Wow.

JAY-                Little Mermaid.

EMMA-           That just sounds like so much pain, so much pain.

JAY-                Yeah.

NIKKI-             It’s so worth it though.

EMMA-           It sounds amazing, absolutely fantastic.

JAY-                I love it.

NIKKI-             Can I ask, are we allowed to ask, are you and Luke still together?

JAY-                You have to keep watching.

NIKKI-             I knew it, I knew it, I knew it, I knew it.

EMMA-           Okay, can I ask a question then? How are you getting on since filming finished and what’s next for you?

JAY-                I’m just keeping it all close to my chest at the minute. What will be will be. And I’m very grateful for everything that has happened so far.

NIKKI-             Well, you stay in touch with us and tell us everything that you do. And then you come in again and I can be all strange around you another time.

JAY-                Of course, 100%.

EMMA-           We have loved this chat, Jay. Thank you so much for giving us your time. And we’re going to be glued for the rest of the series.

NIKKI-             Everyone’s got to watch it.

JAY-                Thank you so much guys for having me. I really appreciate it.

NIKKI-             Married At First Sight is on E4. It’s at 9pm every week and you’ve just got to watch it for Jay.

EMMA-           Every week night.

NIKKI-             Oh yes, every week night. I got a bit...

JAY-                Monday to Thursday 9pm E4.

NIKKI-             It’s a commitment.

EMMA-           It is.

JAY-                It is.

EMMA-           It’s worth it. Thanks Jay.

NIKKI-             That was Jay from Married At First Sight. Honestly, she was brilliant. I was a little bit fan girlie. I do apologise, listeners. But I am really rooting for her and Luke. If they’re not together anymore I don’t know what I’m going to do.

                         Now, next week, breaking news permitting I must say, Emma and I are going to be on Radio 5 Live on Thursday 19th October. We’re going to be on the afternoon Drive Time programme where we’re going to be live from the National Star College in Cheltenham. I’ve been to National Star quite a few times; it’s a great college. I’m quite excited about that. We’ll be bringing you highlights from that next week. Plus we’ve got an amazing interview with the most brilliant, smart, savvy, confident 18 year old, you are not going to want to miss. I mean, she’s brilliant. She’s everything I would have wanted to have been at 18.

                         Now, you can get in contact with us in all the usual ways. We are @BBCAccessAll on X, and you can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk. Until next week people, goodbye.

[Trailer for The Today Podcast]

AMOL-            Hello, it’s Amol.

NICK-              And I’m Nick, and we’re launching The Today Podcast from Radio 4.

AMOL-            Come on then, what is it, Nick?

NICK-              Well, every week we’re going to take a big subject we want to spend more time on. Because, I don’t know about you, when I present the Today programme I’m always thinking of things I wish I’d asked, I wish I’d heard, and this is going to give us the time to do that: to get more analysis, more insight, sometimes more gossip.

AMOL-            Same goes for me. I’m looking forward to this. Episodes will drop every Thursday. It’s called The Today Podcast and you can listen now on BBC Sounds.