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Friday, 12 May, 2000, 16:35 GMT 17:35 UK
Whose art is it anyway?
![]() Whose art is it anyway? Should stolen art be returned? Where do you draw the line? And who is to decide?
This week Talking Point On Air looked at the thorny problem of who really owns national treasures. Robin Lustig presented the programme and Andrew Selkirk, editor of Current Archaeology magazine, was the studio guest.
Select the link below to watch Talking Point On Air
Your comments since the programme:
Many works of art will have been preserved better as a result of being carefully handled in a foreign museum - there is the theory that the Elgin marbles would not have remained in their present condition in Athens because of the high air pollution levels, and similarly, many treasures would have been lost or destroyed forever had they not been removed by outsiders. However, I think that objects taken in war, however long ago, should be returned to the country of their origin.
Graham Bartram, UK
The colonial powers, as people like to call them, were the ones that preserved these treasures. Without them, most of these artefacts would have disappeared by neglect. The Parthenon was in shambles when Lord Elgin saved what he could from the ruinous hands of the Turks.
The argument that stolen treasures are in safer hands of those who took them isn't good enough. The Tun Huang frescoes, statues and texts, for example, are the product of a once unique civilisation, created within the historical context of the time. That they sit in dusty boxes in the basements of European museums today only serves to trivialise such claims.
Most comments support my stance. However, there are some Caucasians that make statements such as "China is not capable of maintaining artwork...". This angers me, for one thing maintenance is separate from right of ownership. For example, you may not have the ability to maintain and full appreciate a Ferrari, but you can crash it as you see fit, because it is yours. To assume such arrogant stance is reflective of racial ignorance. Many of you have never been to China, some of you still think is a bunch of hut and villages. Chao, Chinese American
Simson Gnanam, USA I see that a few of the progenies of erstwhile colonial meisters and their sycophants are working overtime to defend grand larceny of their forefathers by resorting to convoluted logic, how very typical of them. Nice going, now shut up and return the loot to their rightful owners.
I find it ironic that some countries with limited or very little history are keeping historical works of art originating from countries with plenty of history related to Great Civilisations?
If this is not
"theft", what is it ?
Mark Sargeant, UK Why should a government claim possession of a piece of art, anyway? Surely the only people who should be openly protesting would be the descendants of the original artists. There is so much fuss over which country 'art' belongs to that the reasons for its creation are lost. It becomes nothing more than a childish commodity, and a tool for aggressive nationalism. If we're talking about relinquishing things that were gained through conquest, can the Native Americans have their country back, please?
How would the British feel is their crown jewels were being displayed in Beijing, or for that matter New Delhi? Much of the exhibits in British museums is stolen, a large part of it from India. When these robberies were conducted, there were no such pure motives of preserving the art for future generations. Additionally, it has been recently reported that many of these "well-preserved" specimens are in fact rotting away in warehouses under abysmal conditions, because there is simply no space to display them. This gives the lie to claims that these objects are better preserved in the museums of the west.
The Chinese systematically looted and destroyed Tibet's art treasures after their invasion. This process started even before the Cultural Revolution. Many priceless items were sold through the Hong Kong markets. Within China itself countless works of art were destroyed. The Chinese should look at their own actions before pointing the finger at others.
Greg (British Asian), UK
It would be a sign of good will if stolen treasures were to be returned to their countries like India and China. To Britain they are just treasures to look at. But to their countries, the treasures stand for everything their people are, have been and will be.
The art treasures should be returned so they can be public domain. The auction houses should go back to what they used to be - auction houses and not show off events just to generate cash! Serge Grynkewich, Philippines I am an art historian and as much as I value art objects and believe in the necessity of an art market, I think that if we don't provide some sort of system to prevent the market from controlling public information about art we will be in real danger of either devaluating art altogether or contributing to its commodification irrespective of local pride and local cultural identification with art. Art belongs first to those who made it; second to those who draw meaning from it and third to those who buy it for the sake of collecting. There should be ways to prevent dealers from taking control of all aspects of art making in order to save it for those who share in its meaning but don't have the means to acquire it on an international marketplace.
The British have long enjoyed
the stolen wealth from
colonies. They should learn
from other countries and
return the memorable artefacts
of the colonies. STOP pretending
to be the noble guardian of
the rare wealth. It stinks! What if the Taj Mahal was mobile? It might
have been on the other side
of Big Ben today!
Art and artefacts should be returned, but
there should be an internationally recognised
agreement that the condition of the return is
based on the objects 'going to a good home', where
they shall be given the correct attention and care.
Ayele Bekerie, USA The world does seem a smaller place nowadays and I think these treasures do belong to the world. Britain has done a good job of looking after them and naming its origins.
All the related countries should take part in running the museums that display them and share any benefits from it.
We should look at this problem for the sake of the future generation who are really in need of their cultural heritage as a symbol of the past identity of their nation. It would be much better if the artefacts which originally from China are brought back to China sooner or later.
Returning The Magdella's treasure to Ethiopia is the only right thing to do, because the artefacts belong to Ethiopia not to Britain. It is an Ethiopian history and I am sure that Ethiopians care more about their history.
Daniel, UK I agree with the Greeks wanting the Elgin marbles back (even though the Lord Elgin took them thinking he was saving them from the Ottomans). I personally think they are ugly and the room in the British museum could be used for something else. As for other cultural treasures...the claimants must be able to protect them for future generations. A lot of these treasures would not exist today if they hadn't been "looted".
If Germany can pay back what the Nazi's looted from the Jews, certainly the Colonial powers can do the same for their former victims?
Richard Namon, USA The only satisfactory solution is to:
Arun George, India Being in possession of stolen property is a serious crime, and that is exactly what the British Government has done for more than a century. Surprise us once in a while by doing the RIGHT thing and return Ethiopia's national treasure Mr Blair!!
I went to the Victoria and Albert Museum in London recently. I saw the famous Tipoo's Tiger which had been damaged in the Second World War. Many works of Buddhist art from Central Asia was also damaged in Berlin and lost forever. In such a volatile world, where can works of art be safe?
Unesco should set the rules to determine a possible widely agreed solution to this problem.
Jana Kho
All art belongs to the country that is the most powerful. Yesterday it was the UK. Today it is the USA. So I suggest that the UK send everything in the British Museum to the USA before they help themselves.
It is very sad to read some of the comments of thinking people who assume to be civilised. Certain countries like Greece, Africa, India and China are not capable of managing their national inheritance including art.
These are *STOLEN* art treasures from subjugated nations. Does the conscience of nations today allow them to justify LOOT? These treasures ought to be returned to the rightful owner-nations in a phased manner.
Why do Westerners ALWAYS try to find 'rational' arguments to explain why historical wrongs cannot and should not be set right? The treasures were stolen in the first place BECAUSE they were better off in museums of the Northern Hemisphere!
Palm, UK
If Buckingham Palace were dismantled and shipped of to the USA, what do you think the opinion of the UK would be? Send the Elgin Marbles back to Greece.
Returning it is the only right thing to do. It will be a sign of goodwill to the people once colonised by the European powers. It has more significance to the people of Ethiopia than Britain. If it was taken from a European country, I am sure it would have been returned by now.
Do all the countries that are desperately holding on to other peoples arts and crafts have none of their own to display? Throughout history the greatest argument for Western subjugation of other nations has been their lack of 'civilisation' and 'savagery'. Now hundreds of years later those artefacts are the only things worth showing in museums all around the world. Your comments during the programme:
I would thank Britain for looking after our treasures, and protecting it but we want it back now. You are earning a lot of money from tourism by keeping these artefacts.
I chair a working group on repatriation for Glasgow museums. We returned a Sioux ghost dance shirt to South Dakota on the basis of certain criteria. We looked at how the museum acquired the item and the spiritual significance of it to the people who wanted it. We checked their status and how they would look after it.
Cultural artefacts were local, then became national and are now global.
I work as a registered tour guide in museums. When I saw the Elgin marbles in London it stimulated me to go to Athens. Works of art should be declared to be the property of where they came from but allowed to be on permanent loan to wherever they are.
Robbery is robbery. It's a matter of fact that the Elgin marbles were stolen. Why should we have to go to New York or London to see them?
There are many things to see in Athens. There are better works of art of Greek origin. Art was transported in ancient times. The whole of Northern Africa and Turkey are full of Greek artefacts.
Kriton Piperas, Athens, Greece
Many Countries, today, bear very little resemblance geographically and politically to what they once were. Therefore I think that it would be a difficult, if not impossible task to determine who are the rightful owners of certain artefacts. However I do not believe, that in this current age, that items of artistic and archaeological significance should be removed or traded from their current places. What's past is past, but we can change the future.
It's very difficulty for Chinese and Indian people to travel to the west to see items from their own history.
Wrongs have been done and it's difficult to right these wrongs. During the cultural revolution in the 1960s the Chinese destroyed many of their temples, books and artefacts. The point is simply that China has VERY FEW national treasures left.
One problem is if there is a war, or cultural revolution or disaster in one place then it is lost forever. Your comments before we went ON AIR:
This is an absurd question. Ethiopian artefacts reflect Ethiopian history and belong to Ethiopians. Thank you Britain for keeping (after looting) our treasures. Now we want them back and it is none of your business whether we are capable of maintaining them or not. It is our sovereign right to do whatever we wish with our arts.
Syed Fawad Haider, USA
The treasures should be
returned as soon as possible
to their rightful countries.
Most of the disputed treasures were "acquired" during
colonial occupations and
were not given as gifts. The
Kohinoor is a prime example
- accepted as a "gift" from a
ten year old Sikh Maharajah.
This diamond represents
a major part of the
Sikh religon and culture
and should
be returned to Amritsar where it belongs.
Abiye Abebe, Ethiopia
Not every art piece removed from the place where it was born should be returned: it would wreak havoc with the world's museums and what's more I think that an Italian painting in Los Angeles (say) is a very good ambassador.
But the Parthenon Marbles are another matter: they are a very important part of a monument that is still standing after more than 2400 years. I wonder what the British public would feel if some foreign ambassador had managed to take away, say, some royal tombs from Westminster and another country was now displaying them in its national museum. Wouldn't they want to have them back in the Abbey?
Is it not surprising that a people who currently occupy one country should complain about the actions of another occupying nation?
The Chinese Empire currently extends over many different subject races including Tibet. The Indian Empire currently extends over many different subject races from the far north in Kashmir to the far south in Kerala and Tamil Nadu.
It would be interesting to learn from these complaining peoples what they are currently taking from their subject people.
I wonder what the western nations would say if this happened to them? I don't think they would sit back and watch their property looted. I think they would go to great lengths to have their national treasures back.
Treasures of historical significance should remain available to the public. If the country of origin is adequately capable of taking care of the treasures, it must be recognised as the party of original right and given the opportunity to take care of them.
Human heritage needs an international organisation to free it from legacies of the past, colonial or otherwise. At this time in history I do not think all nations are ready for that yet. Selling treasures to private collectors complicates the issue to the max.
Addis Tesfaye, USA All the people of European ancestry believe China has no right. You are wrong! Britain and the US should return all of their "stolen" artefacts to Africa, India, and China, etc. Europe's only claim to fame is that they have gone to every continent in the world conquered it, looted it, claimed it for themselves, and killed or enslaved all the native peoples living there.
There is always a balance between what is eligible for return
and what is not. We can not argue that all the items should be returned
to their place of origin simply because that is not feasible. There is
though a strong argument about items that are of high national importance.
The Elgin (Parthenon) marbles have indeed a big national importance
to the Greeks as they are part of the greatest monument survived from
their ancient civilisation. For the rest of the items displayed around the
world, I do agree that they should stay were they are. At least they will
have something to display.
I think stolen art should be returned to the country of origin no matter what. I believe all artefacts should be returned to its country of origin.
George Fotiou, Greece When Lord Elgin took a part of the Parthenon in his luggage, the Greeks where under Turkish rule and couldn't possibly object his decision. Did he take the Elgins to protect them? Highly unlikely, as there where so many more important treasures to salvage.
Are the British right to keep them? Come on! Don't tell me that Greece, a EU country where archaeology is practically a religion can't take good care of a few marbles...
It is evident that people protest only when their own interests are affected. How do you compare a Ming vase to the thousands of destroyed Tibetan monasteries? At least the people who took the vase had the sense to keep it in good condition.
National treasures are as important to world history as they are to national history and need to be protected.
There was a recent report that a poor African country (I can't remember which) has been displaying some documents and letters relating to the explorer Dr Livingstone. Owing to the poor condition in which they have been kept they have disintegrated and are now lost forever. If a country does not have the capacity to look after its treasures they should be held in trust by a country that can for the benefit of the whole world.
If other countries want their treasures and heritage back then they should be obliged to retrieve them under the same circumstances that they lost them.
Mark M. Newdick, USA/UK There can be no ideal solution for this. Probably the return of particularly significant relics that were clearly stolen should be negotiated. However, the country seeking the return of stolen treasures has the responsibility to demonstrate that it can look after the treasures as well as the country where they are currently kept. In the case of China, while there are notable exceptions, the management of cultural relics is still poor, black market selling and smuggling of art and other relics (often with the connivance of local government officials) is common, and forgery is rampant. China should get at least some of the more important relics back, but it has some work to do first.
Parag Muley, USA
Museums would be very dull places if they could only display works that were made in their own countries or ethnic areas. What is most important is that art is displayed publicly, not hoarded in private collections.
You must look at this issue from the Chinese perspective in order to understand their indignation. I am not talking about the Chinese government. I am talking about the anger that many Chinese people feel toward Sotheby's auctioneers. Over one hundred years ago, the British government took advantage of a nation that was technologically backward and internally unstable. It forced the Chinese government to allow Britain to export opium; burned and ransacked the Imperial Summer Palace (the ruins are still lying outside of Beijing); imposed a number of unequal treaties onto a people that was already suffering tremendously.
Many Chinese people became addicted to opium. Lives were destroyed.
Of course, after so long, it is difficult to say whether a particular treasure was in fact stolen. Nevertheless, please do look at it from the Chinese perspective, there is a reason behind their indignation.
So a distinction is being made about 'looted' Nazi art and that looted by colonial European powers. Why?
If Britain requires foreign art to enhance its museums, I would suggest they can go to Sotheby's and pay the market price. As for the rest of the looted art especially from "uncivilised third world countries", now is the perfect time to return it to their rightful owners.
I think other countries' national heritage should be returned. At a time when Europe is returning Jewish assets and stolen art work, it would be double standards to deny other people what is rightfully theirs. It is only fair that the same fair standard apply across the board.
I think the crux of this matter is whether the artefact had and continues to have religious or spiritual significance to the people it was removed from. If it has then it should be returned. If not,
then let it stay where it is.
It's nice to see China showing concern about rightful ownership. Perhaps the Chinese government will now return Tibet to the Tibetans.
Ramanan Pitchumani, Netherlands
Aren't there double standards here? Do most of the people opposing the return of historical treasures stolen from their rightful owners also oppose the return of treasures looted by the
Nazis from the Jews during World War Two? Or is it too politically incorrect for them to speak up about it?
The pressure on several Nazi-era governments and companies to provide compensation is very high indeed. Why do other governments think they are immune to the same principles?
Each claim deserves to be decided on its own merit. Not all treasures are demanded back, but those that are should be given due consideration.
Theft is theft. Morally and legally whatever is taken should be returned. There is no two ways about it.
Zafar Nadeem, England
Items taken after battle by the victor is war booty. It is the victor's right.
I think that each item should be considered for return on a case by case approach rather than a wholesale, PC-driven, emptying of museums. There is a case for the Elgin marbles to be returned as Greece can look after them as well as we can.
Leroy Han, canada
If the items in question are "plundered" items, then they should be returned. Otherwise the nations would be acting like looters. Looting and plundering and pillaging are not part of modern society. The US returned the Hungarian crown after many years. If the items are plundered -- such as many treasures originating from Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania that today sit in vaults in Moscow , they should be returned.
Rohit Dhawan, UK
I see only one problem. How do you prove what was given, what was purchased and what was stolen?
Nepal has lost a lot of its stone, metal, wood and paper art to the western world. Most of them have been stolen and sold to foreigners to be eventually put in foreign museums or private collections. Many stone and metal sculptures that were considered and revered as god by many Nepalese have been taken away from their niches and put in foreign museums as examples of Nepali art. This is a sadistic act being committed by the western world - depriving millions of their symbol of reverence.
Art and history belong to the world, not one particular nation. The emerging nations have found that they can use political correctness and history to beat the developed nations over the head. Enough is enough, stop the insanity.
Gillian, UK
I believe, in principle, that a country's national treasures should belong to (and in) that country. Having said that, sometimes the country of origin does not possess the necessary expertise (maybe due to lack of wealth) to best preserve some artefacts for future generations. For example, many treasures in the Egyptian Museum are being "restored" so poorly that these items will be lost to history.
I would not support returning any of the artefacts brought from any of the originating countries before the Second World War. The reason for not supporting the return of those things is that in their current locations they are much safer and available for many more people who might be interested in arts and culture. This way they promote the originating country and its history far better than being returned there as single item or items.
A distinction must be made between art captured during war, by one nation/faction from another, and the altogether different case of tyrannical regimes who steal art and other belongings from innocent citizens. Victims of Nazi art thefts should of course be given back their property. I do, however, think it would be a very nice gesture if the rightful owner or his descendants allowed the work to be displayed in a gallery for the general public, but this should not be an obligation.
Ruchit Mehta, India
All these calls for the return of works of art are quite ridiculous. You can't change history. If you follow this to its logical conclusion it would lead to the demise of all the major museums and galleries of the world. China has no moral claim until it gives back Tibet which it stole only 50 years ago.
The current trend is to rewrite
history into a politically correct
format. What is done is
done. Mankind would best be served
to proceed with forward vision
thereby avoiding a repetition
of the mistakes learned from
the lessons of history.
For China, which has invaded Tibet and has the worst record of human oppression in the world, to talk about 'looted' art is of course patent nonsense. This silly whining by China, India, Greece and others, if taken to its ultimate conclusion, would mean museums could only have their own national art and artefacts in their collection. How ridiculous is that?
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